Would anyone know what this mark is on a large decorated spoon and how old?
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This is a Scottish mark from Glasgow before the Glasgow assay office was set up in 1819. WM is not known but the single letter S was used for a couple of years from 1773.
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Phil, You are my masterâŠ
Christopher too.
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The single letter âSâ in caps shows in a rectangle on your excellent site as of 1728 and 1756 otherwise in oblongs or a shield or in camphered rectangles for 1758 and 1773 under the general heading âDate Lettersâ
Jacksons at p.569 shows the same configuration with the suggestion the uncamphered rectangle with an âSâ in it continues in use, for whatever purpose, through until 1776 when he goes all âAlice through the looking glassâ on us.
So this might give you a âliveâ letter and add âW.Mâ as an unidentified mark for one or more of those dates except that itâs not a date letter and cannot stand for Sterling as the Scots Standard was still in use until 1819.(Jacksons p. 565 et seq).
I suppose it could just stand for Scots Standard instead of the thistle.
CRWW
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I note further the appearance of the letter âOâ in your data base for the same period which Jacksons is equally clear is not a date letter although unable to say what it is other than it appears on all or nearly all items manufactured by Milne & Campbell. (Jacksons p 565).
The author or his editor go on to observe the same letter O later used by Silversmith John Donald although now he concedes the âSâ which is also used by Donald probably stands for Sterling or Scots Standard. Which considered he had earlier, on the same page in the same tome said it couldnât refer to sterling as it wasnât in use, is a little confusing.
I note Scots Standard and Sterling are both .925 so this too is a distinction without a difference reminding us amateurs at this game that none of these marks are for our convenience or edification but to protect the guilds, even unformed guilds governed by city Charters they have managed to lose together with its membersâ lists.
Shades of London MPâs of the same sort of time period.
CRWW
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Excellent reading!
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WM - WILLIAM MURDOCH (PROBABLY).
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I think Major Markham and his successors have now taken Chaffers into its eighth edition in which they claim to have updated their lists directly from the guilds. Something any of us can do on line.
On the particular issue of pre 1819 South of the Clyde iteration of random letters which are not date letters this older addition is at pains to steer completely clear of any further confusion or elaboration on the matter.
The comments in the Finial do refer to a maker with the initials WM but rather earlier, perhaps?
Which leaves the rather better candidate in the 2010 auction notes: William Murdoch. (supra).
The obvious difference you will have noted is the lack of a pointelle between the capital letters W and M. But in the days before registration of a sponsor mark, this may simply mean the maker has more than one punch âusually a large one for flatware and a smaller one for this sort of thing.
And examination of the auction illustration which your brilliant searching has unearthed and the item in question confirms they are two separate punches not just one from which the owner has later removed the pointelle.
Both the illustrated spoon and the spoon in question here have the non-date letter S on them and both are in un-camphered rectangles. It is difficult to be certain they are the same punch but even if theyâre not, so what? The maker, being a Scot may have lived a long and healthy life in 19th century Glasgow so long as he stayed out of the Gorbals.
The trouble with Christening a Scots child with a name beginning with W if his last name starts with an M, and you have in mind he will become a silversmith, at least three-quarters of all the Scots in the world have a last name beginning with M and when it comes to wandering down to the local Kirk with flask of holy water to wet the wee childâs head they are all terribly tempted to call it either William or Walter.
I was about to say, however if close counts in horse shoes and hand grenades then why not in Murdochs? But now you have grapeshot a whole bushel of William Murdoch candidates at your audience including Mathew Boultonâs hapless steam engineer minding his own business in a Cornish mine a decade or so later whose only contact with a spoon might have been to use one to put jam on the Cornish butty his wife provisioned him with for the dayâs work.
A most interesting mark is the WM which has a very small pointelle in the middle, a capital S and then a capital but smaller A in a near square. The auctioneer opts for âProbably William Murdochâ, no date, of Glasgow. The small capital âAâ isnât the 1819 date letter which is very clearly in a shield and would have had the duty mark of Geo. III on it most likely. And this spoon looks decidedly Hanovarian with a triangular handle so possibly earlier. And if âAâ isnât a date letter for Glasgow then is it a town mark or an assayerâs mark? The obvious town being Aberdeen which is more usually AB on ABDN. But with two sets of hammermen in that town competing with each other for prime legitimacy anything is possible and there are two WM Aberdeen makers identified. Bonhamsâ entry looks more hopeful . At least itsâ OE and it might even have pointelle if my eyes donât deceive me. Perhaps the best candidate is the ended ebay listing which has W.M and two clear capital S and about which the lister states categorically, but without much data shown to back him up that his candidate is Mr Murdoch of Glasgow.
So honestly now I just donât know. Clearly there was at least one, perhaps three Scots silversmiths with the initials WM and equally probably one or more of them lived and worked in Glasgow or if they didnât at least favoured their work with âSâ and on one occasion an âAâ stamp which isnât a date letter but indicates something which, according to Jacksons may or may not be sterling or Standard Scot depending on which paragraph of his fine tome you are focussed on.
There once was an entirely fictitious Dublin silversmith with prodigious production and the initial PW or WP I donât recall. After a century of quite remarkable post mortem success and some glowing write-ups it was determined quite recently he actually not only didnât exist but he was at least two other Dublin smiths who very definitely had existed and did all his work for him.
I suppose if auctioneers and Ebayers continue to blame Bill Murdoch of Glasgow for all manner of sterling creations sooner of later he will emerge from the phantasmagoric world where he is currently.
CRW
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Lovely replies, many thanks. They are so informative and made me smile as well. Very best wishes. David
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Iâm happy and proud to have discovered a clear lead that has fired up the brilliant minds of our experts. Phil and Christopherâs intuition and knowledge terrify me. 
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I think if you want to peg a âclear leadâ Bart, you should cross examine Bonhams on its assertions My own experience with it is it has some extremely good researchers but they are all rather young and prepared to attribute evidence older folk would give a reluctant âAttaboyâ to and little else. I would take up the cudgels for you but all my friends who ever worked there are dead or retired or both but, obviously, not necessarily in that order.
Because I am easily amused and find making a living seems to take less and less time and actually penalizes use of your brain, I run an www.liveauctioneers.com sweepstake to see which auction house makes the greatest number of patently obvious, self-contradictory listing errors. I give them each a handicap based on where they are (English and European auction houses generally start with zero, US auction houses especially in California I give a -4 handicap and anything in Florida gets a -7 just for being there.)
I notify the auction house when they lose a point and give it back to them if they acknowledge the error. I rarely get to return points from which I have concluded the game is not to record accurate data, but to beguile punters into thinking if they are silly enough to record errors which are contrary sellersâ best interests, they are equally likely to err in favour of buyers which allows them to hawk some very dodgy gear protected by the disclaimers every participant signs and the odd âwhoopsieâ from a SYT if that fails.
CRWW
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I need nothing because I have everythingâGodâs grace, family, friends, health, abundance, a refined sense of humor, and an unconventional taste in all things. But itâs gratifying that you notice my presence and my humble contribution. I sayâI have everything to breathe freelyâŠ
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